Debate about the SCD Mailing list

Re: everything is a maybe
Fri, 2 May 1997 11:35:02 GMT

witkowski wrote:
> Dear all ,
> I rarely post , I think you might get more posts from different
> people if the criticism was cut down. Anyone who reads posts knows
> everything is a maybe it never hurts to check things out, example some
> people may not have Candida trouble but it is certainly worth checking out
> . I for one know I do and I would have never figured it out without another
> page mentioning it. Life is to short to spend time beating people up for
> their input. That Metalic taste MAY also be caused from leaky amalgam
> filling. New studies show they are dangerous to people with immune
> illness. . I put the May in there to not offend .

I read your posting and felt compelled to drop a line. I have posted
several times on several different topics and have never received a
reply from anyone. I feel I have a unique perspective on this diet and
the medical treatment of Crohns disease. I have had Crohns for over 15
years but I have only been dx for 9. I am a RN physician extender with my
specialty being gastroenterology. I have been exposed to the ususual medical
tx for IBD for years and myself have told patients to "do as the Dr. says"
while I myself as a patient refused to take my steroid therapy the way they
suggested when I was diagnosed with one of many associated problems (erythema
nodosum) and have always taken a sub therapeutic dose of meds as I just did
not personally like the idea of needing meds my entire life. I read about the
diet about a year ago and knew if I asked the physicians that I work with what
their opinions were I would be laughed out of the room. The diet worked for me
I have reduced my daily intake of meds to a occasional a.m. Imodium and a"
antispasm" medication Levbid.I do feel that we need to let everyone know that
this diet does not work for everyone but it is a healthy diet and there is
nothing wrong with eatting well.The individual with the muscular joint like
pain maybe in the process of developing a flare up of his disease as active
IBD will give individuals joint pain, muscle pain, fever, etc just like a
viral infection.We need to jointly make suggestions that deal with the disease
process and the current medical tx in place for it as well as alternative therapy(such
as massages with Jade?).This then helps the newly diagnosed individual in
that they realize their physicians may not actually suggest slippery elm
but they may tell you about 6MP.Newly dx patients need to be given information
they can deal with in the reality of the medical world with the added input
of the alternative world.I have seen the damage that can be done in patients
who try alternatives that were not made for the particular seriousness of their
particular problem at that particular time in their disease process. Well
thank you for your time.......................................Jan Mock

Re: diagnosis and prescription vs. similar symptoms and experiences
Fri, 2 May 1997 11:51:49 GMT

At 06:04 PM 5/1/97 +0300, you wrote:
>Here I go again, perhaps its my fate to act as a skeptic, but don't you
>think we should phrase what sounds like to me as a lot of medical
>(traditional AMA stuff, holistic, whatever) advice and diagnosing being
>done by sdc participants, with qualifiers such as, "maybe its canidia/
>maybe its a viral infection/ I had similar symptoms and this is what I


> I rarely post , I think you might get more posts from different
>people if the criticism was cut down.

Dave and other unsigned comment,

You bring up a good point here. Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else but I take what I read here with a large grain of salt (figuratively--I'm still on the diet <G>). I too am primarily a lurker here and am concerned about some of the "wild" statements made regarding health here.

However, without criticizing <G>, there is part of me that wants to say "big deal". We are all adults here (I think). The very nature of the scd is anecdotal! That's not to say it doesn't work--it does *for me*. I consider *ALL* of the "medical advice" given here to be anecdotal--for me it's just a given due to the nature of this group.

I used to think the scd would literally cure cd. After 2 1/2 years on the diet IMHO it doesn't, but it does relieve symptoms. I'm sure others would disagree and that's fine.
So whether is it explicitly stated or not, everything said here is the opinion of the author and may have no relevance to your personal situation at all. In other words, your mileage may vary.

SO TO EVERYONE, I guess I would tend to agree with Dave more than disagree. An occasional disclaimer explicitly stated, especially for those among us who may be more impressionable than others, may certainly be a good thing.

On an unrelated subject, it would be helpful to me if people signed their name AND where they live in their signature. Sometimes it's tough to figure out by an EMAIL address who I am talking to--I like to call people by their name. AND, I'd love to meet some scd folk in the Nashville area. If we do this, maybe some will show up. What do you think??

«« Discover the Spirit »»

appreciative lurker
Fri, 2 May 1997 14:00:52 GMT

I am a lurker but appreciate everything that everyone posts,
particularly the recipes recently. This being a democratic group, I want to
place my vote for a continuance of postings of an alternative nature. There
are more than a few of us for whom the scd has brought tremendous
improvement but not total relief. I personally fall into this category and
so am always trying new herbs and techniques to tip the odds in my favor.
Can't wait to try Michael's suggested early morning regiman and I do so
appreciate the time he took to post it. I might add that I think an
abdominal massage last thing at night is invaluable, some may find as I do
that the area is tight and in some instances painful, and it seems that
anything done to get it to relax will make for a better start the next
morning. Once again, please don't stop the alternative suggestions, my
progress is painfully slow but definite and I depend on anything you have to
offer to keep me going in the right direction. I hate to think where I
would be now without the diet and all the little things I do to supplement it.

The best to all,

Re: Disclaimers
Fri, 2 May 1997 16:50:53 GMT

Hi everyone,

I have really appreciated the recent discussion about how we phrase
advise, suggestions or personal experience with treatments and medical
information. I really like the suggestion that we always emphasize the
"in my experience," part. (In other places I've seen it abbreviated as
IMHO -- in my humble opinion.) One of the things I really like about
this group is that, I have found there to be quite a lot of integrity in
the postings. But I think the questions and comments raised are really

These are some of my ponderings about this recent discussion: it seems
like in some form, the essential question being raised is, do we use the
list just to talk about the scd and things related to that, or do we
want to be able to bring up other stuff, related to our intestinal
health but maybe not about the diet?

For me, I appreciate the focus of having this list be about the diet --
or I'd be on the IBD list -- however, there are some very inspired
comments and suggestions that come through here and I would hate to lose
those. So I really hope we can keep flexible and keep the focus while
allowing discussions about tangential or related things to happen.
Also, we begin to develop relationships with each other that make it
hard or impractical to censor information, i.e., talking about recent
health check-ups and medications (herbal or prescription). As we all
know, this stuff has become the fabric of our lives, so it's hard not to
share it sometimes. I feel that as long as we keep things in the range
of personal experience and out of the theoretical, things don't even
remotely begin to sound preachy. It is how we communicate about them
that is important, like the comments before mine have also emphasized.

By the way, regarding information about things of an alternative nature
vs. stricly western medicine, it occurs to me that the scd, because of
it's controversial nature, fits into the camp beyond even alternative
medicine. I've found that even within the alternative medical
establishment, the scd is considered extremely controversial and
experimental. So we are kind of like in no-man's land with this diet.
Which is why I value the companionship of folk on this list so much.

I like the suggestion about putting our names and where we are from on
our posts. I could understand people wanting to maintain anonymity too
-- but whoever feels comfortable with it, I think it's great.

Best regards and speedy recoveries to all --

Davis, CA

Finding the SCD
Fri, 2 May 1997 19:33:25 GMT

>Hello SCDers
>May 1 is a milestone for me since it marks the date I began the scd in 1996.
>It is now one year later and I'm compelled to celebrate it by relating a bit
>about my experiance. I hope that newcomers to the diet will find this

Dear Tim and others,
I really enjoyed your message of inspiration about your one year anniversary of
being on the SCD. I think this is the whole reason why we should not try to
make people suppress what they want to say on this list or how they should say
it. That's called censorship, which in itself is a big debatable topic.
However, you mentioned how you were so thankful that you FOUND the diet. I
myself felt the same way, and realized that it was only by chance or miracle
that I DID find it, given the secretive, controlling, censors in the mainstream
medical industry who truely believe it is in my best interest (and theirs) to
be kept in the dark. I have heard of tons of people who have had IBD for years
and suffered terribly - in and out of the hospital every few months, unable to
enjoy a decent quality of life. These people had never come across the OPTION
of the SCD, OR they were told NOT to even TRY it, by some ignorant medical
proffessional. I don't expect these MDs to ENDORSE the diet, since it is so
called "anecdotal". But I do expect them to inform us about the fact that it
is an option. It has helped some patients, and it does not harm. For these
reasons alone, it should be talked about and we should continue to spread the

I found out about it when a neighbor gave me the book when I was sick in
hospital. I was highly skeptical, and asked my dr. about it. He rejected it
point blank and told me to eat anything and everything because it would make no
difference. I handed him the book, and he immediately turned to the page with
the disclaimer on it and read it aloud to me. He has 30 years experience, so I
listened to him. Later on, I realized I was foolish to listen to his so called
good advice. In a way, his advice was just as damaging as any of the so called
"far out" advice that comes across on this list, because his advice kept me
suffering for another whole year before I decided to try anything I could to
get better. His answer was more and more drugs, like higher doses of
Prednisone, etc. The SCD was definately the answer I needed.

As someone else on the list recently said, this diet is just as "far out"
according to some on the IBD list as the objectionable things on this list that
a couple people have complained about. This list cannot be censored because
each of us has different opinions about what is harmful, right, or wrong. I
switched to participating in this list from the IBD list because of this very
problem. I got so much criticism for my postings, from Dr. Holland and others,
that I stopped posting any of my views altogether. I had a big argument with
Steve (as I like to call him), as some of you may recall, over whether this
diet was valid or not. He rejects it point blank, and does not want to see
anyone recommend it on the IBD list. So he has in fact censored the list. I
still follow the IBD list, but I rarely post anymore. I post all the time to
our SCD list however, because I feel more comfortable to voice my opinions,
ideas, and experiences, even if they are not all "politically correct" in the
eyes of the mainstream medical industry. If you want to be brainwashed into
one way of thinking and believing, and participate in only censored discussion
groups, then I don't think you would remain on a list like this. Let's face
it, this list is for people who are OPEN MINDED and INTELLIGENT. So we don't
have to worry about "disclaimers" - we don't need any. I highly doubt anyone
is going to be sued by someone else over taking advice they found on this list.
So why don't we just "chill out" and express everything we want to. As long
as everyone uses common courtesy and common sense. If you feel a need to
disagree with something you read here, then do it. You can decide if your
alternate opinion on the particular matter should be aired publicly on the
list, or privately to the person who posted what you disagreed with.

As far as topics on this list are concerned, I think it is a given that the
main focus will always be the diet itself, but logically, the diet is for the
diseases, and therefore, related topics come up. What is wrong with discussing
anything related to the disease on this list, including the diet, and any other
so called "alternative" treatments? I think it's fine.

If someone said jump off a bridge....
Fri, 2 May 1997 18:24:26 GMT

>Dear all ,
> I rarely post , I think you might get more posts from different
>people if the criticism was cut down. Anyone who reads posts knows
>everything is a maybe it never hurts to check things out, example some
>people may not have Candida trouble but it is certainly worth checking out
>. I for one know I do and I would have never figured it out without another
>page mentioning it. Life is to short to spend time beating people up for
>their input. That Metalic taste MAY also be caused from leaky amalgam
>filling. New studies show they are dangerous to people with immune
>illness. . I put the May in there to not offend .

Dear all.
I post quite a bit, and I agree with the above message. I would hope that
those who seek advice and answers on the internet would be intelligent enough
to take everything they read with a grain of salt so to speak. I personally
have gotten into the habit of researching everything myself before I take it,
do it, or believe it. I don't believe things that people say just at face
value. I analyze it in my brain, and if it sounds good or logical to me then I
go to the library or on the net and look for all the info I can find about the
subject, to educate myself. I then use all that knowledge to weigh the pros
and cons and decide for myself. I read plenty of things on this list and
others that I think is total bunk, but usually I just ignore it. If I think it
is really wrong, I'll respond to it with my personal opinion on the matter.

We all have free will and most of us live in a free country. I believe that
information should not be suppressed. For example, I think all doctors who are
treating IBD patients should be obligated to give them all their options. The
SCD is one more option, but most of the MDs would like to keep us in the dark
about it. My former Gastroenterologist had heard about the SCD but he didn't
believe in it, so he didn't inform me of it. Of course, he couldn't be
bothered to read or even browse through the book itself, so he really had no
right to criticize it. The point is, he told me, a newly diagnosed patient who
had no knowledge of the disease or treatments, that I should eat whatever I
wanted, and that diet has no effect on IBD - PERIOD! Is this right? Should he
not have told me about all the options that exist if he knew about them? I
think that he could have at LEAST said that some patients have experimented
with diets, some of which are controversial, but that some patients found some
relief from different ways of eating. He could have pointed me in the
direction of the different theories such as the SCD so that I could decide for
myself. I believe within 20 or more years, this will be the case.

Everyone should have access to all the information AND opinions out there.
After all, isn't that what the internet is all about. Sharing information,
ideas, and experiences. I can see where some may be worried about people
taking medical advice and harming themselves or wasting money on things, but if
they do, it is their own darn fault. Some people have more extreme or
unconventional beliefs than others. But as the old saying goes..."If someone
told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?" This is just my opinion.

Seems Like One Unhappy Camper with IBD
Wed, 14 May 1997 0:09:17 GMT

Hi All

Thought might find this posting interesting from the IBD Digest.

Personnally I have been on the diet for almost 11 months and have had much
success. I follow the diet as the Speciifc Carbohydrate Diet and not the
Selective Carbohydrate Diet, perhaps that is why it has worked for me.

Some of the things that I did and maybe the writer did not do was first
make a committment by buying the book and not borrowing the book. Then I
read the book from cover to cover and then followed exactly what Elaine
suggested. Her batting average might not have been 100 % but it sure was
close to it.

I guess if I had the attitude that "my mind was made up do not confuse me
with the facts" I would come to the same conclusion as the writer.

Another interesting conclusion from his posting that this mind was made up
on a poll of 2 people? One had success and the other had failure.

Regards to all...


Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:08:52 -0400
From: "Guy F. Brandenburg" <>
Subject: Re: IBDlist Digest (10 May 97)

I got two e-mail messages personally from people with personal
experience with the Gottschall no-grain diet. One said he/she was much
improved by it, and the other said it almost killed him/her. Obviously
what you eat is very important. I did not try the Gottschall diet
myself, but I had already (for years) been cutting out this item and
that item from my diet because they caused me diarrhea and cramping.
When I did look at the recommendations of the Gottschall book, I was
more than willing to try just about anything. Hell, I was trying
acupuncture also. What made me so skeptical about the book was that I
had already ruled out a bunch of the stuff that the book recommended as
good, since they made my innards hurt like crazy, gave me diarrhea,
and/or seemed to cause bowel obstructions, especially the nuts. I
concluded that the authors were nuts, too, especially when I read the
part about how you had to stay on the diet for years to get any
benefits. It sounded to me like the goofy nonsense that used to be
issued by the guy who invented Macrobiotics, whatever his name was.
Again, I agree that what you eat is important. I concluded on the basis
of the evidence available to me, having borrowed the book hoping that
indeed it would provide some answers that I desperately needed, that
unfortunately that diet is crazy and not worth taking a risk on.
If you want to try it on yourself, fine, I guess. I hope it doesn't
harm you and cause your intestines to rupure. I could be totally wrong.
But I think it is a good idea for at least someone (me, since I don't
hear many others, except for the person who sent me the e-mail about
his/her brush with death when his/her intestines ruptured) to say that
they don't think it is a rational choice to avoid all grain products.
Heck, most of the poor people in the third world eat primarily grains
and beans. I wasn't aware that poor people in the 3rd world were
afflicted with crohn's disease or colitis. And most herbivorous animals
eat leaves, seeds and fruits. Grains are seeds, right? I was unaware
that animals suffered from CD or UC. I don't know what causes either
one, but I doubt very strongly that it is grains.
One last point: it's OK to disagree with me, you know, but it's not OK
to say that I don't have a right to express my point of view. Granted, I
didn't read the entire book from cover to cover, but I read a lot of it,
and the more I read the less sense it made to me, so I returned it at
the next support-group meeting.

Was ther really a man on the moon?
Wed, 14 May 1997 21:13:53 GMT

To the Author of the above regarding your views of the SCD.
If you havent suffered enough from the devastation of IBD, then it is your God given right to suffer some more. However if you are looking for support I am sure you can find it on this list.Good luck to you.


critical crusader
Thu, 15 May 1997 16:02:15 GMT

Did anyone see this guy's first criticism towards us from IBD digest vol8n26?
I found it more offensive than the last one in vol8n29! I don't know how I
missed this one below. At least Tom the moderator has some sense, with his
comment at the bottom. Maybe if this "guy" tried the diet a year ago after he
supposively read it, he wouldn't have had the rupture and could possibly have
avoided the surgery. It seems his anger at his poor health is being
misdirected at Elaine and the book and us for following it. I find this sad,
but suppose there's nothing we can really do or say to change his mind. I just
hope he doesn't decide to become a major Anti-SCD advocate or something. We
don't need any more discouragement from the world about this diet. It's bad
enought that the medical profession is against it, but now patients too. I did
like the other SCDers comments so far towards Guy though.
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:11:16 -0400
From: "Guy F. Brandenburg" <>
Subject: Re: IBDlist Digest (19 Apr 97)

Hi. I've written a couple of things before. I have had CD for about 35
years, but it was only diagnosed 10 years ago, and had a resection last
year of 3 feet of jejunum. I've been through prednisone, Sulfasalazine,
acupuncture, and Asacol, and the only thing that helped was the surgery
(emergency surgery, by the way, since it ruptured), frankly.
I wanted to comment on that Gottschall book, "Breaking the Vicious
Cycle". I honestly think it is the work of a lunatic. I read it over a
year ago, and thought is was insane. It advocates replacing all grains
(i.e. seeds) with nuts. How on earth can the consumption of grain be the
cause of Crohn's disease or colitis? Ever since humans evolved, they
have been eating a mixed diet of grains, vegetables, meat, fruit, milk,
and nuts--pretty much anything they could get, except for various
religious taboos that various groups have held. CD and UC are fairly
recently-diagnosed diseases, if not recent diseases, that affect maybe
1% of the population of the US (I have no numbers on other countries).
Nuts are very high in fat, and, if I'm not mistaken, have a lot of
oxalic acid. If you eat lots of nuts, then you're going to have an even
worse time with kidney stones! Thank you very much, I've had them once
and I don't want to get them again!
Another thing that put me off is the fanatical tone of the book: it says
that just REDUCING grain is not enough: you have to eliminate EVERY BIT
or you're condemned to suffer forever. And not only that, they claim
that only after about 2 years of grain-free diet will you begin to feel
better. This sounds to me like a religious cult (which can appear in
many guises).
I would recommend steering clear and being sensible. I predict that in
10 or 20 years will have some good research that finally points in the
direction of a cause and a cure. Gottschall's book is, quite frankly,

[Does the book really say that it will take about 2 years to get
relief? Other people using this type of diet talk about results
in much shorter times. I haven't read the book myself, so
cannot really make a judgement either way on it (how's that
for waffling!) -tom]

Re: The "Gottschall" (Specific Carbohydrate) Diet
Wed, 14 May 1997 18:07:36 GMT

I have been on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet for a little over a year
now, with excellent results. It has enabled me to get off of 2 of my
long-term medications (Cipro and Flagyl). My primary symptoms
(diarrhea and anal fistulas) have improved dramatically since I
started the diet.

I would like to clear up several misconception regarding the diet:

1. Raw fruits and nuts can further irritate an already-irritated
digestive tract. That is why they are allowed on the diet ONLY
I am now able to consume things
things (such as raw nuts) which would have quickly given me
diarrhea prior to the diet. I have found that I do have to still
limit my fruit intake SOME, which I believe is due to candida in my
system. (Even when I don't limit my fruit intake, I still do much
better with it than prior to the diet).

2. It does not take years to BENEFIT from the diet, but usually a
year or two to be completely symptom-free. Many people (myself
included) saw benefits within the first few DAYS on the diet. Mrs.
Gottschall recommends giving the diet a one-month trial.

3. Grains and sugars themselves are probably not the original CAUSE
of IBD. In my own case, I believe that heavy usage of ANTIOBIOTICS
during childhood (for the croup and bronchitis), plus a diet heavy
in REFINED grains and sugars, was the original cause (by upseting
the necessary balance of bacteria and yeast in my digestive tract).
I believe that God put everything we need in whole wheat in order
to digest it properly, but that processing it into refined white
flour removes some of the elements (such as the bran) which are
essential for proper digestion of it.

- Russ Johnson
Dallas, TX

reply to naysayer
Wed, 14 May 1997 18:49:33 GMT

Dear Russ,
I'm glad you posted this to the ibdlist. When I read that guy's posting about
how he decided the diet doesn't work based on principle and not experience with
it, I was irritated. I decided not to bother replying because sometimes I can
go a bit too far trying to defend our diet and convince people that this
attitude is wrong. I just figure that those who are not ready for such an idea
will sadly, not be able to reap the benefits of it like us. I wish that people
would be a little more open minded. You have to if you want to get better. If
someone is willing to try accupunture, then a simple diet like ours is not such
a big deal. Personally, I tried accupuncture, but hated it because it hurt too
much. I just decided it wasn't for me, but I still believe in it. At least I
tried it before deciding it was "bad". Anyway, your response to that naysayer
was a good one. Brief and to the point.

Re: critical crusader
Thu, 15 May 1997 16:35:34 GMT

Hi everyone,

In regards to the guy who put down the diet on the IBD list, I just had
to add my two cents. I get so tired of telling people that I'm feeling
better because I'm on this diet and then get this range of suspicious
comments or questions, like, "Do you really know that it's the diet that
helped you?" "Maybe it's just that the stress in your life went down?"
or their eyes glaze over suspiciously and I hear people start to get
defensive about their diets -- as if they think that I'm recommending
this to everyone, regardless of their problems (which I don't unless
someone asks).

I just never would have guessed that a diet that helped so much could
cause so much suspicion and controversy! Mostly I find that folks start
to get defensive about their own diets, as if I was condemning grains.
It's gotten so that I don't even really want to say I'm on the diet. I
just say I'm feeling better. It's so sad because this diet could help
so many people. I'm convinced that it can work for a large majority of
people with bowel diseases -- if only because it rests the gut so nicely
from having to digest those disacharides. When I went on the diet I
felt like I was finally getting some nourishment that I hadn't gotten in
a long time. After two and a half months, my stamina has come up and
I'm even getting some muscle tone back. So I am so grateful. Well, I
don't ususally vent but the reading the second letter of that guy's
inspired me.

Davis, CA

Re: critical crusader
Thu, 15 May 1997 18:43:17 GMT

Hi all,

I am mostly lurking in this list but I have to say something now.

I hope the guy who say negative things about SCD finds his own
solutions but meanwhile.....he is not important.

All of you ARE important!. I admire everyone of you for trying SCD,
successfully or unsuccessfully. And I admire you even more for using
a support group like this to keep the focus and give and take support
as needed. The 15 or so Emails I get from this group every day tells
me things are working for you all just fine.

I am fasting and in the process of reintroducing foods back into my
system after 3 months of bowel rest. The few foods that I have
introduced so far are in compliance with Elaine's list of eligible
foods and I have had no trouble at all. As opposed to my GI who said
"Just start with EASILY digestible foods like potatoes, bread, rice
and pasta". Thanks, Dr., but that advice set me back 30 days.

Anyway, Keep up the good work. I doubt I would have the desire to try
this alone if you were not here 15 times a day :-)

Barb Mills
Vancouver, Canada

Re: Are we focused?
Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:56:53 GMT


It is great to see things back on line again and that we are getting a free
flow of information. There is such great assistance knowing that people are
not alone with this disease....

However, I am troubled by the tenor that the SCD Support Group is taking.
Not that long ago someone (I forget who) set out some simple guidelines,
etiquette and rules of the road for our use of this group. Recently, there
seems to be an influx of em's dealing with other books, diets, regimens,
mindsets, "occurances" and paradigms. All these (as open minded individuals
taking charge of their illnesses) have their place and time. I understood
that this support group was for those on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet as
oultined in E.Gottshall's Book(s) "Breaking The Viscous Cycle" /"Eating
Right for A Bad Gut". We value the comments of those who have been strict
on the diet (no rice milks, soy milks, corn, corn syrup,etc) as this diet
works at the molecular level and is not a diet that one can occasionally
"cheat on" like some diets. Also there has been a plethora of comments on
other diets that actually include forbidden foods under the SCD, no wonder
some are asking if certain foods are acceptable, the SCD is at risk of
becoming marginalized if we keep including other non SCD diets in our
discussions. If it is our personal belief then we are entitled to it
otherwise it has no place in this forum which deals with those on the SCD.

Is it that many on the group do not have the book or access to it? It is
quite clear what is acceptable and what is not. After reading it several
times (I make a point to read the first 60 pages every six months or so) I
find it well written and easy to follow. The recipies serve to put into
practice what is covered in the diet. The comments from ones who have
worked to modify and improve the diets recipies are invaluable to us as a
family as we all enjoy the same food as our daughter (5 years with Crohns
Disease of the colon). This is a positive side to the group. We have
enjoyed the comments of those who have put up with so much and have come out
winners after their colonoscopies, this gives us and others the
encouragement to continue. Discussion about medication, flares and well
being are also insightful and appreciated as the diet is an adjunct to
medication. The "hang in there" and "This too shall pass" emails kept us
going through some dark days and nights.

Should this group become a personal forum to promote personal ideas that are
somewhat tangential to the diet? - do not get me wrong, I am not trying to
stiffle public debate and commentary but I wonder what is served by
discussion about yougurt and blood groups - is this a substantiated study
that we can all access or is it again a commentary??. My experience is that
IBD sufferers are a unique group among those with chronic illness and often
these tangential emails serve only to bewilder and set them of on a tangent
perhaps only to undo what has taken weeks with small gains to achieve.
Incidentally, we have been with the diet for close to two years, my wife is
Type "O", I am Type "AB" and my daughter is type "A" we all enjoy and
tolerate yougurt.

We should count the cost of our comments before sending them out - ask
ourselves, is this really encouraging? will it value the other SCDer's? is
it substantiated and can I refer direct to a specific document? Do we have
our facts/quotes correct?. On the point of the yougurt/blood issue what
happens if someone thinks that yougurt is causing them a problem and they
stop taking it. If we are strict to the diet yougurt is fundemental to it.
If made correctly it will be tolerated by most people. Further, we should
be careful about exclusions. The book when read c a r e f u l l y and
repeatedly yeilds greater insight. On exclusions after discussing the diet
in depth the book states:

"The Specific Carbohydrate Diet is highly nutritious and, depending
choice of the foods, is well balanced. Every effort should be made to
"round out" the diet by eating sensibly and not, for example consuming
large quantities of meat, or more than four muffins each day TO THE

I myself do not want to discourage but I hope that we can move away from the
current trend. If I am wrong in my perception, I will stand corrected.

Respectfully submitted,
Allan Partridge

Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:00:00 GMT

Hi All

There is another message that talks about some messages that depart a
bit from the SCD topic.

Elaine Gottschall got the diet information from Dr. Haas who developed
the diet in the late 1940's. In her talks, she adamantly says that she
will not change even one word of what Dr. Haas told her. It is much
like wanting to change a piece of music by Mozart or adjusting the
wording of a play by Shakespeare. Elaine considers Dr. Haas to be a

It is not understood why the diet works. Elaine has spent many years
trying to understand it.

I personally have used a rotation diet plan to overcome Crohn's disease
(before Elaine's fisrt book was published). I don't talk about that
approach much as I have found through personal experience with our local
support group that people are much more receptive to the SCD method.
The rotation plans can help some but they are of little value if not

In more than 5 years I was unable to convince even 1 person to try a
rotation plan. After that futile effort, I now have several success
stories locally using the SCD. The problem we have in our local support
group is that once the people get better they no longer need the support
and they stop attending the meetings.

In summary, I believe that the SCD is the best diet approach available.
Since I work with Elaine Gottschall I have committed to her to follow
her wishes at all times.


Re: Allan Partridge's discussion "ARE WE FOCUSED?"
Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:57:47 GMT

Hello folks:

I have strong feelings about this. Here's my story:

1. I only started using the Internet in the last 6 months because I was
very concerned about my adult son, who had been diagnosed with CD in June
96. My daughter used the net and pointed out the information from the
Crohn's Colitis foundation. ONLY an emergency would have driven me to
using this medium.

2. I threw my hat in the ring on the IBD list after reading no more than 2
or 3 posts. I spoke from the heart without editing.

3. I pissed several people off, who wrote me rude messages, both publicly
to the list and privately. (What principally irked people was I wasn't a
sufferer and yet immediately thought of gathering up all the lore from the
Internet and putting it in some other--printed--form. I just thought the
Internet was as arcane to others as it had been to me. I DIDN'T THINK).

4. These flames were more devastating to me than I could possibly have guessed.

5. As soon as I found out about the Gottshall book I bought it and read it
and sent one to my son (who lives in Sweden; Nothern Sweden has an IBD rate
10 times the rest of the industrialized world. Hmmm. NO sun, NO veggies,
lots of dairy, sugar, and refined flour.)

6. He so far has not decided to use it.

7. I am trying the diet (have just over 30 days) to see how much trouble
it is and what the affect is on a person not suffering from IBD. (I'm
constipated and have lost 8 pounds. Lutz talks about the constipating

8. I'm reading textbooks, the Internet, the IBD list, the scd list. I
like you folks the best.

9. Earlier, I would not have agreed with Allan's point about focusing the
discussion, since I so needed people to talk to. Even though some people
flamed me, a few responded to the anguish they heard under the whining, and
I have several penpals. I can talk to them at length and about anything.
SO NOW I'm ready to focus (present post excepted) with some caveats.
(Caveat: a legal notice . . .to suspend a certain proceeding until the
notifier is given a hearing. I think there will always be times when
comments like Allan's are sorely needed to get a HEARING from everybody in
the group and see we're still on the same sheet of music).

10. Back to focusing the discussion on scd list. I have hard copies of
ALMOST ALL the posts from the scd list from the last 3 months in 3-ring
binders. (I have the IBD list on paper back to when it started).

11. NOW I can see why the protocol for one-short-message-per-post makes
sense. I have made a filing system for the scd list based on SUBJECT. I
have files on IBD Theory, Personal Testimony, Recipes, Yogurt, Vitamins,
Alt. Therapy, Other diets, Research, Medication, Surgery, Immune System,
Experts--and the categories are still proliferating.

I read a post and don't know where to put it. Paper piles up. I see a
pattern then lose it. I want to be able to succinctly report to my son and
instead end up copying stuff and sending it to him, thus defeating the
purpose of all the hours I've spent in trying to cut the wheat from the


We forget very quickly what it was like to be newly diagnosed or to be the
parent of spouse or other love one of someone diagnosed. You can't believe
how both humbled and toughened up I am since the first shock of reading
medical textbooks.

IMHO (snicker, snicker, see what I've picked up, and if you don't know what
it means e-mail me directly. I'm using it to prove I just didn't get off
the last boat, as my immigrant Grandmother used to say.) People can be
told how a culture, such as the Internet/scd list, works, and then gently
be led to adopt its ways. For the most part, they don't need to have their
feet held to the flames. Or insiders can just be patient until newcomers
pick it up.

I don't remember ever seeing any info on how the scd list operates.
Obviously, it's a unique culture, quite different from the IBD list or the
Crohn's Colitis foundation.

I was never TOLD about a one message per post rule; I finally inferred it.

I'd like to know when it's OK and not rude to respond just to the person
sending the message and not the whole group.(I think that would be one way
to keep tedious conversations some of us want to have on other topics from
intruding on the whole group, but it's always a judgment call.)


The question seems to be: which way are we going to err--towards the
INclusive or the EXclusive?

I'll play either way once I know the rules. While I'm learning, I
appreciate it when people tell me how to act along with assuring me that
everybody had to learn.

PLEEASE forgive me for such a long message. I value each and every one of
you on this list, you're an inspiration. Like Dietmar, I'm a recovering
intellectual. Life dishes out experiences the mind can't handle alone.
Besides suffering from intestinal problems, you guys are wonderful and
brave and smart and funny--and so am I, and that's why I belong here.

Best regards,
KD in Texas

Re: Are we focused?
Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:37:59 GMT

Dear Group,

It sure seems, that every so often we have this discussion: what's
appropriate for the group to disuss and what's not. The last time this
subject came up -- and it's all cataloged on Mik's website -- it seemed
that more posts came in about people wanting freedom of speech than to
try to police the group into sticking to only the scd.
After being on the diet for five months going on six and having
watched to group discuss many topics, I've come to the conclusion that
it's pretty impossible to be human and to not have tangential
conversations come up in relation to the scd. Personally, I enjoy them,
find them informative for the most part. I've really learned some things
that I wouldn't have otherwise, like about candida and hydrotherapy,
plus understanding what kinds of medical treatments people undergo that
I have never experienced, and what they go through with them.
Basically, this is a community and there are a wide variety of us,
including different nationalities represented here and to me that means
there needs to be room for people to speak about what concerns them,
even if it's a weak link back to the scd. If I don't feel like reading
all the posts or a particular subject doesn't interest me, I just delete
them. It's no big deal. As long as people are polite, ethical and
realize this group is for people on the scd, those are pretty much my

Take care everybody,

Let's Chill Out
Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:14:36 GMT

I have noticed a few people getting up in arms about this list lately. I had
to stop being a regular participant in the IBD digest list group because of
critical people and people who felt they could tell us what we could and could
not discuss. I would be saddened if I had to give up on this list too because
I could no longer feel comfortable to discuss any topic or put in my two cents
or opinions.

If I posted a message on the IBDlist regarding the SCD I got people who were so
opposed to it that they felt they had to flame me. Dr. Holland himself was
completely unprofessional when he repeatedly e-mailed me privately in order to
argue over whether the SCD could work or not. He got my e-mail address off the
IBD list. One time he resorted to juvenile name-calling. Now I rarely post to
the IBD list because I didn't find it very supportive anymore.

At the moment this is the only list where I can get some support from people
who agree with the diet. I don't believe the SCD list should be limited in any
way. I think that if you don't care about a particular message, say regarding
mold, or candida, you should simply skim it, realize that it doesn't concern or
interest you, and click that handy little DELETE button to move on to the next
message. Let's not be so picky and dictatorial. Personally, I'm not
interested in certain topics or messages that I get from this list either, but
it's just part and parcel of being a member of a group. Like someone else
pointed out: It's no big deal. That's the way I see it. Many of us get a
mailbox full of junk mail and flyers along with our real mail every day. We
don't feel compelled to read every piece of junk that comes in, we simply throw
it out at a glance. With electronic mail, superfluous messages are not
environmentally hazardous, like paper mail is, so it's not really an issue.

When I found the SCD list I was so happy because finally I could talk with
people that believed that diet could have an effect on IBD, which is my main
point of view. If people can't feel comfortable discussing _anything_ within
the group, then they will start to drop out of the group and who will we have
left? Just the critical ones who feel they can control everyone else? This
happened on the IBD list, which is practically controlled by Dr. Holland and
his worshippers, unbeknownst to newcomers who join in. People take his words
as if it were coming from GOD himself. And he is only one human being, with
very narrow minded viewpoints and opinions that he tries to dish out to anyone
who will listen and praise him. This is the type of person who should have no
business participating in a support group.

So, to those who are getting in a big kuffuful about messages they don't care
to read, I say, either put up with it, or go create your own list where you can
narrow the focus and police it yourself. I vote for this list to remain an
open discussion arena for any health related topics. If we imposed rules like:
only SCD related messages allowed, there wouldn't be much to talk about would
there? After all, it's all in the book. Like Elaine quite often says to
people: READ THE BOOK!! I have heard her reply this to many people who ask
questions that are totally obvious if they would read the book. I always saw
this list as more of an IBD Support Group for people who believe in the
principles of the SCD, rather than a cult that is totally dedicated to the
diet. We all have full lives with many things going on in them, and the diet
is just one aspect. Let's try to chill out, and be kind to one another. We
are all in the same boat with these illnesses, so let's stick together instead
of arguing amoungst ourselves. We have enough to worry about without having to
worry that someone on the list may not care to hear what we have to say. Now
I'm beginning to wonder if my messages are welcome on the list anymore. Am I
one of the ones who posts too many messages unrelated to the SCD, that some
would like ousted from this list?
Thanks for listening,

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